Are hub motors worse?

That’s right there isn’t just one way. They each have their advantages and disadvantages.

Can’t wait to try those 107mm abecs just tell me who to write the blank check to

Hey @ChrisChaput welcome aboard…

When the little guys in the esk8 industry start influencing the product designs of the established skate companies you can be sure we are doing something right :wink: (proud moment)

I think in three years we can all look back and say with more confidence who chose the correct path with esk8 drive train technology offerings and aftermarket options, I’d say there will be belts, hubs and maybe some new stuff too… Suppose it depends on marketing a little bit also…

Do the maths, 4000 Raptor 2 customers accumulating per year, depending on riding style each year needing probably 2 or 4 outwheels each?.. In 2 years that’s 32,000 wheels that might be needed… Maybe 64,000 wheels consumed in 4 years from now… And most of our customers are in USA…

Next product available from Abec11, due 2018. Aftermarket R-spec ghost outwheels :wink:

@ChrisChaput you make great wheels man & your also a smart business guy… It’s great to have your input and thanks for joining in on the discussion…

Still open minded to discuss business if your interested.

Regards Jason.

Yeah, when you settle in on and commit to one or two specific hub motor diameter/widths, then some third party vendors may roll the dice and tool up for plastic injection sleeve tooling and the wheel molds. But if the motor sizes that you use today are going to change over time, someone is going get stuck with yesterday’s tooling and have to make more new ones with the same risk of having THOSE be obsolesced in a year or so.

There will definitely be hub motors around for years to come. Aesthetically they can’t be beat. They’re like a perfect child - neither seen nor heard :wink:

But the ONE thing that skaters are not too lazy to do, is to change wheels. Because there is exactly ONE locknut that stands between them and a new wheel. Bushings too. And both of those sockets are found on their $10 skate tool. Change baseplates? Oh hell no … there are 8 locknuts and you have to hold the screw head on one side and wrench the other. Screw that.

If you can get a fair amount of urethane on those hubs, have stellar size, shape and thane options, and make changing a wheel as easy as it is now, you’ll do well. Just stay away from hill-climbing events 8-O

I hope to be working with you and anyone else who wants great thane on board. The door is always open …

p.s. If you have any CAD files that you want to share, I model in Solidworks 2014 and Fusion 360 and can import a number of different formats …

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True dat! …

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And what about all terrain option for hub motors? I’m on vacation now and I brought my Inboard with hub motors. On most asphalt/concrete surfaces this is ok but like 50% of the sites I’ve visited this year has been gravel so it’s grounded in my truck :frowning: Swapping into AT wheels would make it possible to ride it everywhere

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That maybe true… but the market isn’t skater… The market for Electric skateboard is much more bigger… Right now your are on a forum for builder, people around here stay up until the sun goes up, to do some tinkering over there board, no one around here is too lazy to unscrew 8 screw. Another of the market, is the general public people who buy pre-made board and will never do or want to do some tinkering over it, they’ve bought a product to work strait out of the box, and they mostly will buy part and accessories from the manufacturer, because they don,t want the hassle to fit something else. Also you want a product that don’t need maintenance and unlike belt system, that have to be adjust, replace, and maintain in order to get the best experience possible, hubs offer a no maintenance system that is easy to use for everyone. The biggest disadvantage of hub is always the thin urethane… but even if it thinner it doesn’t feel like it when you got good quality urethane… (FYI I have pass over my faire share of crack and pot hole, with those hub here in Montreal.

Regards JF

© @MoeStooge


Doesnt have belt problems in my opinion :wink: I see this as the 3rd option, in choices between belt drive and hub drive, of course, it does not solve other mechanical issues that might arise but at least it does not suffer from heat and other elements as much as hub motors tend to be prone to

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I am a builder and I could not stand how time consuming it was to remove a bolt on pulley when changing wheels. I integrated the drive pulley into the truck hanger with machined slip-on wheel adapters to solve this problem.

Think of this, I can switch from 83mm to 107mm and effectively change my drive ratio by only removing 4 lock nuts. When I want to fine tune I can also change pulleys and/or switch to different motors without worrying being pigeon holed into a first generation product line that will be non-compatible quickly in a rapidly changing market.

Being able to easily modify and have cross compatible products is one of the great things about skateboarding in general. To take that away and say it is the best for everyone is crazy. Builders want to pick their own trucks, motor mounts, wheels and motors. Many who just want to buy a complete also want to be able to upgrade or switch out components when something new comes along.

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I can attest to the pure shittyness of MTL streets lol road surfaces are truly less than ideal

Here are the three nuts that it takes to hold onto these wheels. The SoCal SuperFly testing crew. Look how politically correct I am. I encourage handicapped cripples to get involved. What? That’s not what they like to be called? F 'em. If he doesn’t like it he can test the chair on the stairs as far as I care :wink:

Long live diversity in skating …

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When are these wheels hitting the EU market? Or does diversity not extend that far…?

@ChrisChaput as much as i love flywheels…please guys…reconsider new graphic design and changing typography on those wheels. Wheels not only should ride good but also look good and since forever flywheels look like 5 years old desgined them. Omg…That bee and those ugly ass fonts just make me cringe everysingle time i look at them. I am Sorry for strong words but I really love those wheels and i would love to see them looking good one day.

Sounds like the first ever “ABEC 11 SuperFly Graphic Competition” is born. First place prize is the first set of 107mm SuperFly’s to come out bearing the winning graphic. You have until 11:59pm Sunday July 23rd 2017. I’m the judge, jury, and executioner.

Put up or shut up. No bitching, whining, moaning. All bribes ignored except for those from young, hot, available women in the Southern California region.

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Fuc*k yeah! Count me in. Ill make my own design for sure this week!!! Awesome!!!

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I believe what the market is looking for is a board that has the speed, reliability, and run time. to drag ones butt up to the top of the mountain then allow one to freeride down then ride under power home the best of both worlds

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From Vedder.se :

http://vedder.se/2014/10/chosing-the-right-bldc-motor-and-battery-setup-for-an-electric-skateboard/

"So, regarding KV: different KV versions of the same motor are fully equivalent. KV only affects the battery and ESC choice. Therefore, while comparing motors, lets talk about torque instead of current because torque is proportional to current / KV and, as explained above, the KV value can be changed freely with the amount of turns and copper thickness.

RPM/Losses/gear reduction

Now we know that copper losses are proportional to the square of the torque produced by the motor, and at low RPM and high load they are dominant. As RPM increases, other losses start to add up exponentially. In my experience, these losses start to get significant around 60k electrical RPM, which for a 14-pole motor is about 8570 mechanical rpm (most 50mm+ outrunners have 14 poles, some unusual ones have 18). Because of the square relation, it is desirable to run at as high speed and low torque as possible as long as we stay below 8.6k RPM. To express the square relation in some numbers, having double the RPM and half the torque at a certain power output will cause four times less losses. The lesson from this is that: make sure the top speed you design the skateboard for is at around 8.6k rpm on the motor if you are using an 50mm-60mm outrunner.

For my longboard with 84mm wheels, where I would like to design for a top speed of about 35km/h with a sing motor, I would need a gear ratio of about: (35 / (0.084 * pi * (8600 / 60) * 3.6) = 0.257 which is 1:(1/0.257) = 1:3.9. Note that this gear ratio is independent of battery voltage and motor kv. Keep in mind that 8.6k rpm is not an exact number, but a guideline that seems to apply quite well to all 50mm-60mm hobby outrunners I have tested so far."

Understanding the matter, you realize that the motor design doesn’t have to much impact on the fact that losses build up with the amount of torque you squeeze out of a motor. If you want more torque at the same efficiency, your motor will get a lot bigger all of a sudden. Expect your comparable (to a geared system) hub motor to weigh 4KG and be huge in diameter (because of the square relation). You can’t cheat the physics! Most BLDC outrunner motors are already 80-90 efficient. When plotting the efficiency graphs, you could simply assume your motor to be perfect.

All of a sudden you start to realize that the motor design doesn’t matter to much. So you end up with the fact that you need to accept the losses, which will be converted into heat. Losses = Heat and vs. So any hub motor will need the best cooling possible to shift those losses (heat) away from the stator/magnets into another part being cooled by e.g. air. In case of a skateboard this is most likely the the hanger, sitting above a potentially hot tarmac surface, since the motor can is wrapped in heat insulating urethane. Your losses can easily reach values as high 200-400W, especially when going slowly up an incline or ride against the blow of wind. This is why you need a twin drive to cut the torque needed in half, since copper losses are proportional to the square of the torque produced by the motor.

So if you want to keep comparison fair, you always need to compare single drive to single drive.
Another fact that is very often been overlooked is the following: If you managed to build a super torque rich small and light motor that could be used inside a skate wheel, it could also be used in a geared system, all of a sudden starting to perform a lot better. So in a comparison you should always compare the same motor - used inside a hub, and used in a geared setup. Anything else is cheating yourself.

Another thing that is often misunderstood are the losses of the belt drive itself. Compared to the inefficiencies of a hub, that is nothing you need to worry about. The belt system Benjamin and I tested was more than 97% efficient. The reason why coasting is better without belt drive is not the belt drive itself. The motor inside a belt driven system is simply performing better as a regenerative brake, since it is geared. Hubs do also need to be debated from the generator point of view.

Frank

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@JohnnyMeduse , You don’t need to readjust belts constantly…Timing belts don’t stretch. Ask any professional automotive mechanic. If they did can you imagine how many non tinkerers would have a pile of cars in their front yards?

Timing belts were around long before E-skate. I’m not saying people don’t have issues with belt driven setups. They do. But all of them are related to misalignment, poorly made parts and bad technique.

I also have to add. Is there anything better than a well made non motorized Longboard with nice trucks and good quality cushy wheels? If you spent a day out riding a perfect longboard what would be the first thing you think you could change on that board without affecting how it feels to ride it? Would you change those cushy wheels to something with less urethane and a bigger metal core? Not me.

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True but if you don’t take a look at your setup and adjust the belt tension, because stress and vibration are loosen up screw on you motor mount, on a daily or weekly basis you take the risk to get a broken belt. ( here is some example. )… It a process you learn from experience… but the market isn’t people with experience, and they most likely get tired of it…

Ride quality is more important to me. There are a couple of different subsets here it’s true. People are mostly concerned with looks and that pays the bills, but c’mon! There’s no comparison when it comes to the feel of quality longboard components. You can have belted systems without compromising the ride.

The only exception with what I’m saying is Carvon’s V3 direct drive.

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