Are hub motors worse?

A post was split to a new topic: Hub Motor & Urethane Riding Qualities

This forumla might be true for the electrical theroy alone.

But we are talking about magnetic electric machines.

The permanent magnet strength, specifically the magnetic flux field strength, is a torque multiplier. Increasing Current is not the only way to increase torque output from the machine.

It seems the Vedder formula assumes all motors generate the same torque per amp.

So is It is possible to overcome/reduce the low rpm copper losses with improvements in the motor design alone? I think it’s possible and I’d be happy to be proven wrong.

For better motors esk8 designers need to start thinking about electro-mechanical engineering, not just Electric theroy.

This is why Raptor 2 can outperform belt drive systems. This is why we offer 110% performance guarantee.

Everyone said hub motors were shit, even I said that… The problem was people didn’t look outside the box…

Vedder is a smart guy but his formulas shouldn’t dictate what engineers should and shouldn’t try to achieve. It’s time people open their minds and continue to push hard to innovate. We should be trying to prove Vedder wrong, not simply sit back & quote his comments and bury our heads in the sand.

Trial and error is a powerful formula.

Just what EXACTLY do you mean by “outperform”?

I watch these Telsa’s tear some other cars a new one off the line but then the other car blows by after a 1/4 mile or so. Which one performed better? If a board is really good for the first 1/4 mile up a hill before requiring the rider to carry it, is that okay? If a board is fast as all hell but unsafe at high speed, how do we measure its “performance”. Do we care about the rider experience, such a comfort, fatigue, security, and fun, or do we just quote telemetry readings and specs off the BLDC tool? Is range the key issue? Speed? Is carving, turning, drifting, stability, and control the bigger issue? How about being fast off the line?

What about a rider being able to configure his board to perform the way the HE defines performance? Can you get a different split in truck geometry front and back? Can you switch to bigger/smaller/harder/softer wheels in a jiffy? What about cutaway deck shapes that allow for off-road wheels. Is that same motor good for EVERY wheel size, or just the one that comes with the complete?

I know that I’m different than a lot people, in that I demand a lot of options and configurations. But there are so many great ways to skate, I can’t imagine that everyone would be happy with a “one size fits all” approach.

I believe that performance, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder …

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Yes, all the yes.

@onloop how about we keep things apples-to-apples:

Take the Raptor 2 motors out of the hubs. Rewind them to 3 times the KV they currently are. Put them in satellite with a 3:1 reduction.

Hubs are better? Seriously???

Torque would be better in satellite, and top speed efficiency might be better in a hub configuration.

Who wants what?

Different strokes for different folks…

torque at the wheels, acceleration, top speed, range, watts & surprisingly efficiency - this stuff can be measured.

Yes, its possible and will be available soon.

YES, can change urethane easily. We will be selling these in about 2 months.

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/n-yp39j5/zad02/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/183/1212/RSPEC-CROSSOVER-ELECTRIC-SKATEBOARD-WHEELS__52943.1493399099.jpg?c=2

YES, our modular electronics can be swapped to any deck! In fact, our electronics can power any motor you choose, even Carvon V3 (FOCBOX bulk pricing available)

ALSO, we have some new decks designs coming soon.

No, to maximize performance the motor must be custom designed for the specific application, retro-fitting & adapting motors with belts (evolve) is never going to give the best performance.

I mostly disagree with that,

I suppose it needs to be defined, Objective performance VS Subjective Performance criteria.

Objective performance needs to be measurable & comparable against other objective evidence.

If you make a claim about performance, i think it is important that you can measure it. If you cannot measure it then it is not really “true” performance, it a subjective / opinion based view of performance characteristics.

EXAMPLE: a pro-Skater in the SLS league will say ABEC11 wheels are too big, heavy, soft & perform horribly for skating the streets & doing tricks. This is subjective.

However, you could measure rolling resistance, durability/life span, top speed… That is Objective Performance Evidence and hard to argue against.

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I am not trying to say one method is better than another method. At this stage everything can be improved.

I am simply saying this.

  1. Raptor 2 hub motor design is doing things that most people assumed was not possible with hub motors. I am trying to change the conception of the market that hub motors are shit. I think my videos are very good evidence that the market has mis-conceptions about hub motors, I believe the Raptor 2 is proof that hub motors can work very well in esk8.

  2. I am also saying that It’s very likely that the results we are seeing are due to the motor design improvements. Its not magic, we designed an improved motor & got improved results. Simple, anyone can do this with R&D, time & money.

  3. Finally, The Raptor 2 will outperform all existing commercially available mass produced electric skateboards that use hub motors. It probably beats most satellite motor setups too. This is why we offer 110% performance promise.



EXAMPLE: If we make a competition, specifically to see what electric skateboard has the most torque that the wheels I would have two options,

  1. Take my hub motors & install a 20mm+ wide belt & pulley and take advantage of the mechanical torque multiplier gain by using huge reduction gearing.

OR

  1. Make a better/bigger hub motor.

Eventually, there will be a clear winner, the design constraints of one approach will be the limiting factor eventually… I haven’t done this exercise so i don’t actually know what the best drive train is for esk8… All i know is that i have achieved some amazing results & probably shocked lots of people who didn’t think it was possible.

If we make a competition to see which esk8 can achieve the highest top speed, the design will be different again.

Each performance criteria, torque, speed, heat, weight, etc can be a single focus for the engineer, but eventually, we want a good all round performer that is reliable with minimal maintenance that does everything very well.

That is why I believe hub motors will eventually dominate the industry. I am more than happy to be proven wrong on this :slight_smile:

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Take an Inboard M1 hub motor - weigh it.

Take a Raptor 2 hub motor - weigh it.

Performance from a power / torque stand point would likely proportionate to the weight difference as a percentage - assuming battery and programing are the same.

Comparing hubs and belts without the same motor, battery, and programming is a marketing joke IMO.

Hubs and Belts are different, and have their places - both will be around for a long time.

Stay tuned for more episodes Marketing & Posturing…

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To summarize: Horses for courses…

You got know what you want from your board and where you ride it. Some questions you could ask yourself are:

  • Are your roads rough?
  • Do you face steep hills often?
  • How is the climate in your country (hot, cool, ambient)?
  • What is your weight?
  • Do your feet go tired soon, riding a board?
  • Do your feet/legs accept vibrations?
  • Do you want flex in the deck?
  • Do you want to use your preferred wheels and shore hardness?
  • Do you want your board to look like a regular, non electric board?
  • Do you want the best possible acceleration (even up a hill)?
  • Do you want the best coasting experience?
  • Do you want max range?
  • Are you a beginner, average rider, pro?
  • Do you want to use your preferred deck/trucks?
  • Are you a speed freak or do you enjoy cruising and carving?
  • Do you want to win Pikes Peak or a drag race?
  • etc. etc.

These questions need to be answered by yourself before making a decision. Very often it happens that you want to combine things that you can’t without accepting a compromise. Designing and riding boards for almost 15 years now, I have an advantage in making my decision. @ChrisChaput probably has his own opinion about urethane wheels, since he knows everything about them and tried out a lot. He probably loves that ultimate smoothness in the ride and the sound of top notch thick urethane attached to a pro board. So you will probably not see him flying past you on hubs, since his toenails would curl in horror.

Users, being new to e-boarding, do not have our experience. They often buy on visual impression and promises. This is a bonus for hubs. Experienced riders will consider more factors, but could still end up on hubs or a geared setups. Again, horses for courses and personal preferences…

Personally I prefer

  • max. vibration dampening
  • nice flex in the deck
  • Personally I love pneumatics, since they are a big relief for your feet and bones and you can even ride on cobble stone roads with ease and a smile on your face.
  • I do also like urethane wheels with high rebound, using a thick layer of urethane, especially when carving down the relatively rough concrete airport runways.
  • Fantastic acceleration and range - I love to know that the battery lasts for 40-60Km.
  • I ride mostly on flat terrain, so I ride a single drive, having only one ESC and motor to care about.
  • I like things to stay as cool as possible, even when pushing my limits.
  • I love powerful twin drive MTBs for off road fun and touring (how could I not).
  • I still love the appearance of hubs (everyone probably does).

I know that I am in the comfortable position to be able to build every board I can dram of. Not everyone can afford three boards, nor does everyone have the knowledge and skills to achieve what skilled DIYers can achieve.

Horses for courses is my conclusion. The more informed the customer is, the better he can make his decision. So we will try our best to serve each customer with the perfect board, according his abilities, weight, terrain and purpose of usage. In some cases a hub might even be a good choice, depending on your personal preferences, path and the climate you live in. There is no one shoe fits all.

“Are hub motors worse” is to simplifying.

Frank

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@onloop I’ve said what i came here to say.

I’m not getting into this argument because people are making money selling their particular solution so that solution will only ever be the right one for the people who have the money to market it.

And hubs are cheaper and easier to manufacture and assemble on the board than belt systems. Let’s just make that part clear because when it comes to selling electric skateboards, or any fucking other thing for that matter, shaving time off of assembly and shaving parts of the list is about saving money and making money. ITs not about performance. It’s partially about reliability. Its all about money. Its not about creating a custom experience for the rider unless you’ve got a pile of various KV rated stators sitting on your shelf ready to dial it in for that one guy with his one application. And if its not about getting the rider exactly what they want, then what’s it about?

You’ve had a vast amount of success leveraging the DIY community to build your completes, and now you’re gradually moving (while still popping in now and then and keeping the forums going and providing a lot of content and good info and luring people into the sport) toward being a factory touring suit who used to skate and still looks good in a muscle shirt. Don’t do that. Stay here. We want you here. This pattern of invent something, use it to make money and invent something else, then talk shit about the old thing and how it never made any damned sense so you can sell your new thing… its almost a circle jerk of marketing. And now seminars on how… to sell… and market… WTF even are you anymore?

I swear to god if you go pyramid scheme on us and sell books on esk8s that tell you how to sell books on esk8s i will swim to Australia and beat your ass with a broken gen 1 raptor deck. Don’t forget where you came from.

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Did I say how much I like Abec 11?

I love hard carving and long slides, and this exactly my only concern about the raptor 2, I’m completely confident about the whole system like focbox, nano-x, the torque or speed from the hubs, etc…Just that, how the thanes will perform for hard carving and sliding, I hope to see collaborating enertion and abec11 soon!!

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Dude, ride a Raptor 2 then lets talk…

alternatively, watch this video

Tell me you are not slightly curious about R-SPEC GHOST hub motors now? I wouldn’t have believed this was possible 12 months ago…nobody did!

Are you impressed by this performance the slightest bit?

  1. They look awesome.
  2. No maintenance.
  3. No need to align belts.
  4. No need to adjust tension.
  5. Can swap out to different urethane designs easily.
  6. More torque at the wheels compared to 9mm belt drive.
  7. 30% Hill climb ability.
  8. Fully closed design. No sticks, rocks, dirt can’t enter the motor.
  9. Motor Hidden inside wheel, protected from damage by debris.
  10. Faster to install.
  11. Same cost as our previous R-SPEC outrunner motors.
  12. Steel structure for incredible strength.
  13. Larger bearings to handle loads better.
  14. Improved cooling methods.
  15. Precision Trucks for improved handling.

The only negative people can come up with is the urethane is too thin…Lucky we are running premium urethane on the front where most of the rider weight is!.. if that’s the only complaint people can come up with I’d say i have absolutely nailed it!



LET’S JUST BE HONEST

EVERYONE SAID HUB MOTORS WERE SHIT!

EVEN I SAID THAT - & mostly because it was TURE they WERE SHIT

Well, it turns out they are pretty fucking good now…

I’m the guy that is going to be the number 1 brand in electric skateboards industry, or die trying!

ALSO, you know the real reason i did that seminar, I actually need my old DIY parts competitors to grow stronger. The reason I need you guys to grow stronger is that you can all help me grow my business stronger. A rising tide lifts all boats!

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@Blasto I think you should weigh in here. Based on your posts I’m assuming you’re one of the engineers on the Enertion team behind the motor and you probably have the most data since you’ve had the R2 hub since Feb.

Did anything come out of your tests? Is your drive more efficient than existing belt drives? Is less heat produced on sustained high speed on flats? On hills? On long rides over 5 miles? In belt drive systems, is the belt the weakest link in improving performance?

I did 25% grade hills on hubs a year ago while still maintaining 20 mph. I said back then hubs are the future. I knew a slightly larger motor with sensors was going to mean I could climb 30% + hills.

That videos a little deceptive too. 30% for a portion, but not the entire hill.

If you want me to show you some hills in San Francisco that are 30% grade for 1000 ft or so, I’d be more than happy. I would say based on the tests I’ve seen in video so far, the raptor 2 motors are close in strength to hummies v3 motors.

One thing we do agree on, hubs are the future. Hubs will shine through this year!

I don’t want you to think i don’t love you.

But i want to slap you sometimes.

Of course i want to try the fucking ghosts i wanted to offer them BUT YOU LEFT US ALL OUT HERE IN THE COLD. So no, out of spite, no. I don’t want them. What i want is a slice of that superpositional cake that seems to be both in your hand and your mouth. You’ve got this modular system now. SELL IT A LA CART. Actually no, just sell it to me so i can start talking about how hubs are better than belts and rag my old systems that were mostly all your systems anyway.

Ok i’m through having an esk8 family crisis.

No hub motors are not worse. They’re just not tunable and that’s wholly against my business model.

Modular hubs with swappable stators are the next logical step. I expect to see that next year and I better get first dibs since i came up with it in my head months ago while drinking a lot of fruity alcoholic drinks.

BTW Street Your Face is mine and i’m willing to license only Trampa to use it, so mail me a joint as payment.

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Thin thane on your rear wheels is a pretty minor thing for most riders anyways. This is Esk8, not downhill. Most people are fine with just mild carving and unless your streets are unusually rough, thinner thane is not going to make all that much of a difference.

moonlight you don’t know what your talking about

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Did you try it? Try 10km + on a inboard on everything but brand new asphalt and you will change your mind :smiley: It’s shaking like crazy on the rear even if I try to shift weight front to make it less noticeable. I’d love to swap to a loaded deck that allows bigger wheels and more urethane but the hubs isn’t powerful enough to run even these up hill and it overheats when you do two quick batteries with throttle at max…

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What?! So running esk8s at downhil speeds you should have different expectations from your components? This is where experience comes in to play…

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