Track racing - set up and riding style

What’s impressive is : the same thing should work pretty good on skates. I’ll get that and report, thanks for the tip !

1 Like

Thanks Brad. I don’t completely understand what you write. The first 3 pictures you post the center of cravity is nothing but over the deck?

The thing is… the more I lean forward the more I feel that I “loose” the rear wheels, having a feeling they can slip easier because they have less weight on them. When I have experienced oversteer it seems to be better when I put some more weight on my rear leg to get some more traction on the rear wheels.

When I do tight turns with high speed I feel that I need to hang out therein order to counter weight the turning forces. These speed skaters center of gravity are almost as far from their “boards” as they can get. If their skates slip they are fucked as well. Thats what I mean.

image

But again, I might not completely understand what you mean.

It would be awesome to be able to do a curve (open or tight) where I can be much more over the board, so I am up for any suggestion, that I can try out on the track.

Maybe I can get you to explain again with different wording? I know you have already used a lot of words and might not be able to find others. Maybe I could get you to spend a minute watching this video and tell me what you see?

https://www.facebook.com/david.bonde.3/videos/10156995434808777/?tn=%2CdC-R-R&eid=ARC-yg3_y8SiIcaiL_AXIsQXTRp-w-izt-V5YxSOGzEPAxKtpeCZANOJ8TSrKYN3YVk1nmKEvHTb3vte&hc_ref=ARRtvcUqrI6itCtWkVpvujeMyAlEskuI00fIukBmuoJbEn-yAyOEI88fSX1ArcCDf2A&fref=nf

1 Like

Yes that’s what I experience. With the longer deck I feel that I get less weight on the rear, giving it less traction and then more prone for sliding out.

I felt that I need to put in more effort to turn - bigger turning radius. Needed to push sideways in to the board more. Making me feel that its not only the boards own turning force that push the board sideways bit that I had to do it as well. Thats why I think I need to work on the wedging and see if I can chance this.

mmm… hard to tell. But year I think so.

Not yet. Feels like I can work with wedged to give it more turning without the trucks locking up.

I still can’t figure out completely what it was that didn’t feel right. I think the main two things was the turning effort/radius which gives meaning as I didn’t change wedging or bushings from the shorter deck. And secondly the feeling of having less weight over the rear truck because of the added distance between legs, and with me always having more weight on the front leg.

I felt that I couldn’t let go and give it full effort in the corners and of of the corners. Couldn’t hang there and counter the g-force with all I have.

But this was my first time on the deck. Maybe its just because I need more time on it to lean the new behavior. I will see if I can get some time on the deck this weekend out side and see if I can find out what to change before next weeks track session. If anything.

Ok I saw this video: This is what @Alphamail suggested some posts ago. This is also what I feel I need to do when cornering.

“but as you comes into the corner you shift your weight to distribute it through all four wheels of the board so you can maximize your grip”

From 2:56 and 15 sec. forward

It’s all about grip.

1 Like

With your past experience from adjustment successes, the first thought is usually correct. With the longer wheel base and lower gravity center I think you’re right to start with adding truck angle.

What has worked for me when trying to find a workable point in a baseline setup. “Make one change at a time.” If you make multiple changes you could be masking one new problem and fixing another. When you go to track test have an alternative setup plan ready.

100% correct. An unloaded wheel has less grip. The 50/45 duro split is for this very reason. Front axel is naturally loaded more than the rear with the exception of hard accel. The Dynamics of what your doing (accel, decel, lateral loading) is all extreme when compared to gravity on PU. Relying on rear grip by committing more weight to it is a bit of a leap of faith, but necessary. Like finding a balance setup with a car, weight distribution is just as important to balance grip on a raceboard. By softening the rear wheel compound, it allows the front to be loaded more while maintaining overall balance grip. Balanced grip is ultimately determined by the riders application of weight distribution front to rear. Loading the rear in a turn feels unnatural. I can see how with the new wider stance the tendency to unload the rear would be automatic. Looking fwd to the next setup and progress report.

2 Likes

Am I wrong in thinking grip is largely determined by duro no matter what the material within reason? I looked a lot online. There may be better rebound to different materials but if it’s soft and fills the tiny indents in the road surface you stick no? People were saying air tires stick better but that seems because they let so much air out and they deform to the surface better; if they pumped up those tires it would be a hugely different grip story just like with a bike.

1 Like

I can speak for rubber. It’s all about matching duro/compound to applied force, surface temp and surface type. To hard you lose grip, to soft you lose grip. One compound will make good grip on a 130f track surface and be undesirable at 150f. There is always speed to made with the correct compound for the application. You’re only as good as your contact patch.

1 Like

with a small contact patch you’d want softer I imagine and it seems the contact patch can be compensated for. but it seems there’s no sure winner of grippiest material. PU could be just as good as nitrile if soft enough, or as you say possibly hard enough, for the course.

1 Like

IMG_20190222_142238 quote=“Hummie, post:199, topic:75142”] there’s no sure winner of grippiest material. PU could be just as good [/quote]

PU is great for a lot of applications. Still waiting for grip to be one of them.

2 Likes

I haven’t tried rubber yet but with my inlines good PU makes wonder on dry surfaces. Sticky AF with the thin patch! Depending on duro compound there’s still lot of room for more grip than I currently have.

On wet roads tho…

2 Likes

But is it the actual Pu that sucks in rain or is it the smoothness. I never want to ride when it’s wet let alone raining

1 Like

Lately I have been bitching about the SR venturi hanger seats that physically block lean. Yesterday and today I have played with cone bushings (87a krank) in the front truck. I tried every possible configuration and this worked best.

image

It’s opposite of what @Alphamail suggests how the cone bushing should be mounted. This takes away some of physical barrier. There is still some phycsical barrier and it’s not perfect but it seems to be close. I would like the lean feeling to be perfect, so I will still try to do the SR mod. Though I think I could give the front a couple of degrees more in wedging and make this set up better. I properly will do that, but I want to see how this performs on the track.

I think I will get closer to what I want by also using his cone setup (90a) in the rear truck. I just need to order some more cones and that takes time.

I also changed the truck base to 50 degrees rear. So now the set up is: Front: 55 degrees. double cone 87a krank (narrow end toward hanger). Rear: 50 degrees. double barrel 90a krank.

It feels plenty stable. I am close to the lean and turning I want. Lets see how it performs on the track this week.

I also explored the weight distribution front to rear while doing turns. It feels kinda ok to put more weight on the rear leg, when I began to overcome the natural want of putting most of the weight on the front foot.

I feel prepared for the track now :slight_smile:

3 Likes

Actually now that you mention it, there are also special PU wheels for rain and it sticks like mad. Also durability is lower and I think rolling resistance is higher ?

Edit : also you usually just swap the middle wheels not a full set to keep nimble front and rear wheels.

Do you think you can try and record your apex corner speed? With a mic included earphones or headphone or BT headset and a vocal speedometer ? Or maybe a smartwatch haha

There’s a free app available on Google store, I didn’t have enough battery yesterday to run both Strava + Real-time vocal speedo so went for Strava alone.

Hmmm actually an HUD screen in helmet would really be a game changer for this type of racing :checkered_flag:

2 Likes

You can get away with flipping the Cones in cases where the hanger / kingpin space is filled as with a spherical or the SZ surfkeys, otherwise there will be unpredictable sideshift as the bushing attempts to find the bushing seat wall. This can also lead to sideloading the kingpin with a mechanical lock and eventually kingpin failure which can be catastrophic. Please pay attention to what is going on, this is not for the faint of heart…

2 Likes

Thanks for the warning Brad. I will pay attention. I look foreward to do the hanger mod so this doesn’t feel necessary. Or maybe the tkp is just the right way for me to go.

I have found the SZ TKP best for maneuverability without much lean and not that suitable for high speed due to the arc the axle follows

1 Like

I am still a cannonball run type of guy, open world street course…

1 Like

I have learned the following since last update…

The weather have been pretty nice so I have had some time on the street where I could dail in the trucks. I needed more turning so I increased the wedge in the front from 57 to 65 and still had the cone bushings flipped. But this made the front truck do a “clonk” movement where the it all of a sudden shifted quickly when leaning. So I flipped the bushings back to normal.

image

This took away the “clock” movement. The 65 front truck felt pretty good and I was eager to try it on the track.

But there is still something that’s not dialed in. It felt a lot better than last week, but I was still far from being fast. My gut feeling tells me it’s the turning because of the longer deck. It feels like the changed turning from the longer deck can’t be compensated so it feels good. I could try to wedge even further but something tells me thats not going to solved the problem.

I simply don’t feel that the longer deck I have tried the last two times is ideal for the track I am on. There are different things that makes me say this.

First the turning has changes as I describe above and I feel that I can’t compensate through dialing the trucks and bushings.

Second it seems that I do not use the full length of the board. I naturally have my feet closer than the full plantform. If I dont use the full platform, I can’t see why I should have the longer platform as it changes the turning as I described.

Third, when I force my self to use the full platform it ads to the impaired turning.

Fourth, It feels like the deck is too wide. I need to have the the edge under my feet when turning in order to get the lean I need. Therefore I have to move my feet. I now many of you say that I should not move my feet but I have to. If I dont get the edges under my feet the turning sucks. I want to try a board that is narrow enough that I have both edged under my feet so I dont have to move them. At least where I have my feet. When the rest of the board can be wider - I don’t know. I am in the proces of learning to press decks so I will prototype my way through it in the time to come.

Or I should see what bindings might do.

On the positive side the longer deck did give me more stability and a better platform for accelerating and braking.

I will change back to the shorter deck and see if I get back to being fast again. If I do I know that this deck was not ideal for me. And then I am eager to set up the Xapham for the street with the sixshooters :slight_smile:

But on the shorter deck, I did feel that I needed a longer one. So maybe a deck in between. Time will tell.

4 Likes

Holding out for the hanger mod is a good idea. Also is there room for shortening the wheel base by drilling new baseplate holes. Shortening the wheelbase 40mm could be a step in the right direction or make the difference. Research and development, don’t be afraid to chop the deck. Narrow that thing up and modify it to what suits your needs. Its a beautiful deck. In my eyes performing a function is what makes a deck beautiful. DH guys chop cut and customize their own personal performance details into deck design.

3 Likes