@Arch@JohnnyMeduse Yo!!! HEY!!! WTF!!! I was the only LaCroix board to finish the Warriors Path Challenge this past weekend in NYC(57 miles)… I have a new understanding of Volt Sag now… Please for the next iteration of the LaCroix Board take these things into consideration…
1) Charge time needs to be 2.5 hours (I had to wait 4.5-5 hours to get to 95% charge for the last leg of the ride which was 15 miles and I barely made it…
The last 2 miles was 10mph then 5mph then 1mph…
2) Battery has to be 12s - no more 10s
3) Only 1st 40% of a fully charged battery is really usable then the next 40% goes into boosted board mode then might as well kick push… This needs to be remedied… I got passed by a boosted board and an evolve bamboo GT… Totally embarassing…
4) The Lacroix board is now being called not LaKwa but LaSag…
I had to get towed by other DIY boards (that were fine) on multiple legs of the 57 mile course. This board cost way too much to have such a shortfall/drop off in performance. The combination of the above issues makes the board only good for 10 miles or less IMO… I say this because if you do more than 10 miles then the volt sag will kick in and the required charge time to get back to usable power will be pushing over 2 hours.
5) And yeah put a battery/charge meter on this thing!!!
All of the above has been learned from Real World testing not some guesstimation… Yes it was cold outside and yes I weigh 225lbs but on a bright warm sunny day I doubt if I can get a good 20 miles out of my DSS50+ and of course that’s with a full charge and not speeding… and like I said who wants to wait another 4 hours to fully charge again?
Just wanted to point out that you can buy a faster charger if you want and use it right now. You can get an 42V charger(if its 10s) and charge 5-6A or even a little higher if you don’t care about your cell life.
Also, If you switch over to some 100mm BOAS, or 107/97mm flywheels((like the boards that were passing you) you will get at least 40% more range and I promise they wont pass you… You will just pay for it in ride quality compared to the aired tires.
In an earlier post it was recommended to not use a higher amperage charger
1st board that passed me repeatedly was a Boosted V2 on 85mm Caguamas
the rider had two XR batteries and stopped to swap once one ran out…
2nd board was an evolve bamboo GT on evolve 80mm tires - every now and then
I would see the rider kick pushing up a hill due to volt sag but he eventually would
pass me on the flats…
I know about the added benefits of switching to thane - However the DSS50+
and DSS60 are suppose to get
Longest range in class - up to 60km/37.5 miles (DSS50+) and 50 km/31 miles (DSS60)
and approximately 33 km/20.5 miles (DSS60) or 40km/25 miles (DSS50+) in high speed,
non-energy saving, steep uphill climb, fun riding, Ludicrous mode conditions.
Fastest e-board - recommended speed is 30km/h to 35km/h (18mph-22mph). But if you’re in a safe place (e.g. an empty parking lot or race track), bend your knees, get low into your big wave stance, engage your abs and prepare for 54km/h (33mph). Both DSS50+ and DSS60 have the same acceleration, same top speed and the same weight. Only the range is different.
Fast charge - approximately 3.5 hours for a full charge.
I’ve achieved none of the above…(except for 33mph) not even 3.5 hours for a full charge…
If it says 37.5 miles lets cut 10 miles off due to my weight… so 27.5 miles - mind you I’m
not a speed demon at all…so lets cut another 5 miles off so 20-22.5 miles not going fast.
But you’re suppose to get 25 miles going all out…
As I’ve said before I’m lucky to get 17-18 miles in perfect sunny warm conditions…
17-18 miles is less than half of the advertised 37.5 miles
17-18 miles is less than the all out ludicrious mode of 25 miles
17-18 miles also means 4.5 - 5 hours to a full charge again
To add insult to injury there was another 2 riders each with DSS60 models
both weigh around 125 pounds… both ran out of battery as did I on the same
stage of the ride. One decided to get a tow and ended up colliding with the
person towing him. An Uber trip to the hospital for x-rays and a possible broken
hand ended his ride. The other DSS60 rider jumped in an Uber and went home
after eating… which left only myself to make it to the finish. And finish I did
moving at 1 mph for the last 8 blocks.
@BOOSTEDO YO! JEMAL! WTF! (this seems to be the common greet, I’m just trying it out). Glad you enjoyed the event!
So in a nutshell - you engaged in a 100km race in sub zero conditions and got lapped by unmodified Boosteds and Evolves? They had more range than you? dID tHeY LeGAliZe wEEd iN nYc aS wEll?
I kid man, not everything in there is utter nonsense so let me address some of what does make some.
12s battery; our engineers were and still are adamant that unless I wanted to pivot into being an ESC repair company, there’s no way you can currently sell a production board on 12s. Half of them will come back with blown ESCs. They know because… they’ve repaired 1000s. On a production board (hundreds and then thousands of units), you can’t max out the components - you’d be playing russian roulette and be swamped under warranty issues. I’m glad we listened - 9 months in, we spend our time building boards, not repairing them.
As for your new understanding of voltage sag, with all due respect, I’d still keep digging my man. This is a good explanation (https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/knowledge-base/batteries-aa/48140-voltage-sag-explained). We’re not using li-ion shit pouches that sag out the box like old donkey balls. The packs we use (60 cells of 30Q and 50 cells of 20700B) are legit the best packs out there to inherently minimise sag.
This shouldn’t be a surprise but… our boards are set up for max battery pack life - not max range per charge. We set the soft cut off at 34V and a hard cutoff at 29V. It’s the optimal setting not to have to dish out hundreds of $ every year to change your pack. Is this the optimal setting for winning a 100km race in the least time possible? Certainly not.
My trampa urban carver diy built last year has a 12s4p (30Q) that would do 20 miles on pneumatics on a full charge after I built it. At the end of the season last year, I could hardly get 10 miles out of one charge. It was set for maximum range per charge, not max battery life. And it’s been collecting dust for the past year.
If you don’t care about voiding the warranty and optimising your pack’s life, there is plenty of info to do that… wait for it… on this very forum.
As for what we advertise, I’m very comfortable with it. Some guys have gotten 40 miles out of one charge on the DSS50+ and some guys reached 39mph with it. Our advertised numbers are below that - they are conservative.
Finally, when you emailed me back in June, you seemed to be aware that your specific specs (weight and riding style) had an impact on the advertised range of the board as you wanted to make sure the board “can get you a good 20+ miles”. I was comfortable when I said yes. Jemal, we don’t sell fine wines. It doesn’t get better with age. You can’t expect it to have better range now than then. In freezing conditions. After riding it for 4 months.
Until we grab a beer again, keep on (t)rollin’ bud,
A
PS; pretty sure you’re packing more than 225lbs fully clothed with gear and a charger in your pack - closer to 250 IMO. Prove me wrong and I’ll send you 4 tires
This was the chuckle I needed to get my day going. Almost spit a little hot coffee out.
I personally am getting about 20 Miles per charge out of my new DSS50+.
Hard carving, full speed, at probably 165 with gear.
Nothing I have ridden can match the feel I get when I’m on this board. I have a SEG (shit eating grin) every time I step on this thing.
Couple that with the fact that I thought I screwed my board up completely and @JohnnyMeduse not only helped me out but literally took 30 minutes out of his day to connect with me and get everything sorted out.
LOL!!! You can keep those stroller tires and understand 1st and foremost that this wasn’t a RACE!!! It was a RIDE!!! I have only ridden my LaKwa about 20 times in the past 4 months… and you totally forgot about the other two DSS60 riders who complained about volt sag and gave up. I SAY AGAIN NO ONE WAS RACING!!! It was about conserving and testing yourself against the elements…
FACT: I have not been able to get 20 miles with this board from day one…
FACT: I still use my BOOSTED BOARD V2 as my everyday board and only ride the LaKwa on the weekends after realizing it can barely get me to and from work… (remember I had an issue with my remote)
FACT: I cannot Ride to a meetup from my house in the Bronx to Manhattan because I would be at your premature cutoff/Sag Zone and it would take another 2-3 hours+ to get back to a full charge…
FACT: You need some new Engineers… IMO
FACT: I DON’T DRINK
P.S. Show me any non-child/non-midget human being that has gotten 40 miles out of a DSS50+ and I’ll start DRINKING…
P.S.S. No one is trolling you this is actual feedback from the field… If you can’t take constructive criticism then you should go back to where that midget esk8 riding DSS50+ rider who achieved 40 miles stopped and ask him/her if they’re done charging yet!!!
Hey @Arch, I’m the organizer for the event, I want to thank you for sponsoring us, it was really epic and the fact that you took a leap of faith on being our first sponsor speaks volume of your support for the community. Since i’m a DIYer I want to share my perspective and give some technical details that @BOOSTEDO don’t know much about.
9 riders clear the 57 miles event. Surprisingly, all 9 boards are completely different in terms of specs. 3 urethane boards, 1 unicycle and 5 pneumatic boards. For the sake of comparison let’s throw the urethane boards and unicycle out of the equation because it’s not fair to compared them.
So here are the 5 pneumi boards with their respective gear ratio and battery set up;
6 inch pneumis 1:3 13S6P Flipsky 6
6.5 inch pneumis 1:4 12S10P FvT esc
7 inch pneumis 1:3 10S6P Focbox
8 inch pneumis 1:4 12S4P Vesc 6 iteration esc
8 inch pneumis 1:4 12S8P FvT esc
As you can see, there are a wide variety of pneumi boards that day that made it to the end but @boostedo LaCroix came last in the last 15 miles of the event. Please don’t misunderstand, I’m not saying that LaCroix batteries are made differently or that the packs are subpar, I’m merely telling you the fact that the other boards finished the event earlier than the LaCroix by a wide margin, at least 20 mins ahead.
Obviously 12 or 13 s battery pack will always pack more punch than 10S, but @BOOSTEDO believe in the LaCroix brand and wanted to Share his experience with you so that you can make adjustment in the future. Let me know if you have any other questions. I’d be happy to share it with you. Again, I want to thank you for sponsoring us. I hope to see you in NYC soon!
Hey @Nate, thanks for your kind words - I had a great time in NYC a few weeks ago and the riders down there are really fun peeps. Seems like your event was a smash - congrats.
Good info about the finishers - none of which seem out of the box production boards, amirite? Taking for granted those are all top notch builds all using the best cells and dual 6374, then there are only a few true variables ; tire pressure (as @Mobutusan pointed out), ride style, voltage cutoff and rider weight. For this discussion’s sake, let’s assume the 2 first are identical for everyone. Leaves us with cutoff and weight.
For voltage cutoff, i know understand @BOOSTEDO considers it “premature” - these can be changed at will. Will totally void the warranty but if you want to max out range, you can go right ahead. Will kill your pack way more quickly tho. Can’t have it both ways.
I can most likely guarantee our cutoff settings are considerably more conservative than any DIY which, by very definition, generally want everything maxed out. When you have a spot welder and know how to use it, swapping packs every year isn’t such a big deal. Vast majority of our clients don’t own one and can’t be bothered with building a flexible, reliable, safe, battery pack. We made the bet that they’ll trade maxed out specs for longer ride life. We use the DIY mindset, but don’t take the DIY risk.
For rider weight, I guess that’s one FACT we won’t be getting from our anti-midget engineer-bashing root-beer-sommelier KIDDING MAN DON’T GET TRIGGERED AGAIN!
Point is, I’m still glad our out of the box board was able to compete with all these DIY. Just to be in there is a badge of honour for us with our 50 cell board amongst boards that all had more cells (some more than 2x the cells) except for one.
As for criticism, I’m the first who wants feedback. But constructive criticism (battery indicator was one) shouldn’t be mistaken with accusations of false advertising. I welcome the former everyday of the week, the latter not at all.
Voltage sag occurs when a battery is under load and the battery recovers from the voltage dip (hence sag rather than voltage drop or decline, it goes down then back up like a sagging line hung between poles). The amount of sag that will occur in a given moment depends on how many amps are being drawn from a given cell and how quickly the chemistry in the cell can “balance back out” to the original voltage (ions have to flow from one side to the other). When the voltage is sagging the max RPM is reduced because the RPM is determined by the voltage times the kv rating for the motor, so the long story short is the more you are on the throttle/more amps you are pulling the more the battery will voltage will sag while under load and the less punchy the board will feel.
Another kind of restriction that is set by the end user on the speed controller is a low voltage soft and hard cut off limits. When the speed controller gets to the soft ‘cut-off’ it really just starts reducing the max amperage it will deliver so you get reduced torque/acceleration such that the battery can go a bit further, once you hit the hard cut-off then no more power is delivered to keep the cells from going over the ‘voltage cliff’. Different from voltage sag but partially related in that a cell could be pushed under the minimum voltage where it goes ‘off the cliff’ from 3V or so quickly down to 0V, if a cell goes ‘over the cliff’ it can never be charged again (or will be dramatically reduced in the number of times it can be recharged after that and runs a higher risk of fire). Due to this ‘over the cliff’ and no return most of the builders who want their board to last more than one race (endurance or not) set the cut off pretty high so we aren’t really using the full capacity of the cells.
One more thing to add about the whole voltage sag business, when you first get rolling on the board if you don’t kick off at all or jump on and get it rolling with your momentum you are going to be pulling a lot of amps just to get moving from 0 to more than 0 static friction is always higher than the dynamic friction and the force required to accelerate something already moving in a given direction is therefore lower. Once already moving the motors only have to overcome inertia and the dynamic friction between the bearings and the axle and drag from the air and your surface area.
Another thing you might be discounting is the effect of cold on the cells:
The cells advertised for the DSS50+ are rated at 4Ah per cell and 50 cells which is 50cells x 4Ah = 200Ah and 200Ah x 3.6V nominal = 720Wh. Someone my size (about 115lbs) can expect to get around 1km for every 10Wh, if it takes say twice as much energy to move someone twice the size then we can divide it in half and say 20Wh for 1km is a pretty safe bet on urethane, so if we take the 720Wh / 20Wh = 36km or roughly 22 miles. That’s assuming pretty ideal conditions and pretty much taking the battery from fully charged to 0 with nothing left in the tank (and a now dead tank). If you are on and off the throttle constantly this is going to be wasted/depleted energy.
To wrap up there are lots of variables involved your story doesn’t sound infeasible to me but at the same time the claims made by the board makers doesn’t sounds out of line either assuming you adjust a few parameters of rider ride style (we didn’t discuss altitude changes at all) etc. etc. and it could make sense from either perspective. I understand the frustration with buying a thing that is expensive with certain specs and then not getting xyz that you paid for but at the same time there is a lot of variability here so can’t say I clearly side one way or another.
PS some data to look at can see when amps are high the voltage line (blue goes lower) and recovers afterward would take this data with a grain of salt it’s just some random record I had in browser history from the metr module but in some cases I didn’t have all the params configured correctly in there so occasionally some bunk data:
As a side note I think it would be good for mfgs to include this module on the board it isn’t that expensive and adds a lot of value in terms of reconfiguring on the fly without a computer and getting data about what the heck is going on.
Sounds to me like @BOOSTEDO bought a production board but actually wants a DIY board while having no idea how the thing works.
This is a ridiculous argument and thread!
KIDDING MAN DON’T GET TRIGGERED AGAIN!