Your thread title reminds me of this
If you need to go back to the drawing board do it brother. but don’t assume we all share equally in your failures. Go now, But Come back stronger.
IMO is not about loser and winners at all, but a way to start a discussion on a topic that as a community we all have failed miserably to properly address it, in some instances some design have succeeded in tackling the problem but not to the extend to declare victory.
The points here are all valid and at the minimum will steer the conversation in a way that can change the design philosophy, which can benefit the community as a whole.
My 2 Cents 
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Sorry. I don’t agree with this statement.
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I still have a pair of EMF hubs some where around here
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This entire thread is a very bizarre attempt to launch a new product design that is somehow superior to all other existing designs.
The best way of doing this would be simply to admit that the first iterations had some issues but the New design is improved / better because of XYZ changes.
Then provide some details or data to prove that the changes are likely to be beneficial.
Claiming that everything on the market “sucks” and is doomed to fail, without having any first hand experience of each product, is a hard pill swallow.
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I see how you can see it like that, but the discussion part is what I am interested in. If there is an alternate motive for the conversation, I think he has a very hard road ahead of him if the design philosophy have not changed.
Let’s see where this take us.
It sure will be interesting to read the sales pitch
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Well, yes we all know your new RSpec Ghost motors are awesome. We all know they will be the best hub motors ever seen on any planet. We all take it for granted that they wil hold up forever.
Oh wait, it is 1st of april.
We can talk again about the durability of your oh so awesome stuff when it is out and has actually been used in many different situations and environments.
But for now this Statement seems to fit. Maybe Mellow will have better ones, but tthey are not on the market yet.
Comeing to delivery of proof. We have a proverb here in germany: “Don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house.” BTW: You are also very good at admitting issues.
I think this thread will be mostly about technical limitations and discussion on how to migitate them and just a little bit of sales by @Hummie and now also by you, who would have expected that.
Sorry, there may have been some salt in here.
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More or less I also agree with hub motor disadvantages. They are not mean to last the longest due to size, precision and direct hit to the ground. Non hub direct drive is a nice approach to go, this I agree. Nevertheless I still love those big right off the shelf urethane that fits right into the board without modufication. They are known, rounder, easy to replace.
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In general, if hub motors are so bad, please show me all the evidence?
If it is true, there must be hundreds of cases of reported failures?
So. Some evidence is all I ask…
of the hub motors that I have observed and tested over the last two years, even the ones with the worst mechanical design, they have proven to function very well.
Heating issues, urethane slipping, and the materials some are comprised of aren’t meant to last, not to mention that they aren’t even more efficient or really that close to being as efficient as a belt drive, I respect that ur about to come out with ur ghost hubs but @hummie has made some valid points and so what if he tries to sell something, competition inspires innovation
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Well, they did, just not too long.
It wouldn’t be fair to ask how long the ghost motor will last as they haven’t been around for more than a couple months to test, but there’s no magic in the new enertion logo and they’re subject to the same laws of physics as everything. If it’s a slide fit, and if it’s aluminum especially, it’s loose on its way to looser. Thats the laws of physics that is unavoidable and any and every machinist who knows anything will agree. Maybe just increase the airgap
But a reliable hub motor is possible. As I keep saying all it needs is interference fittings and the material that can do that…steel
pointing to Jacobs design as a stepping stone isn’t reassuring onloop. I bought them too years ago and there’s a thread on endless sphere showing how all of us were fed a lot of bull and got crap that was not even rideable and a lot of people didn’t get their money back.
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Wasn’t it a slippage issue, i don’t think any of the hubs were perfect however on ur next gun will u be using glue to secure them? Because honestly a hub that could be put on any truck in 2 minutes would be great for a new board design I’d like to try
The first ones Jacob sold, touted as iteration 6 or some bull, never got close enough to the ground to have slipping rubber issues as the plates on the side weren’t machined well enough to even ride them. They went out his door to all of us anyway with repeated assurances of awesomeness
A regular truck’s 8mm axle is too weak. 12mm axle in the future.
Well hummie. Your marketing strategy is really strange. So more or less you are saying all you sold in the last years is crap and everybody who knows something about materials should have always known. That means you sold crap to your costumers and you knew it. And now the 12 mm axle changes everything, bla bla bla. Your just trying to seed the idea in people’s heads that hubs don’t work. As well as all the other stuff where you tried that people start to doubt about enertion products and especially the Raptor 2.
I made already about 400 km on the first prototype of the Raptor 2 hubs. No issues so far. And this prototype works awesome in FOC and is also more efficient then my 6355 R-SPEC in BLDC. And they have a 14 teeth motor pulley instead of the standard 15 mm pulley the Raptor comes with. (the 15mm would make it less efficient). And the acceleration is stronger then I ever could do on my R-SPEC. Not that the R-SPEC dont have the power. But the belt would start to slip. Had a peak of 3800 watts with the hubs so far but you don’t need that power honestly. Hard to not fall of the board when doing full acceleration and for carving it is too much. And brake performance is much stronger. No chance to achieve that with my 9mm belt system because of belt slip. And also the temperature was never an issue for me. One time I drove them a lot uphill at full speed for hill climb tests. I could still touch them and measured 55 degrees at the hottest position. Of course I have not the steepest hills and I am not the heaviest guy. But when you think about it that the motors will be also fine with more than 100 degrees then it should be OK. I am like 80 kilos with clothes so I think I am very close to the average rider.
These are only my experiences and no marketing.
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300 miles of testing!! Not even an appetizer. Let’s hear from you in a year or maybe even two at the rate you seem to ride.
I’m not trying to market so much as revealing the details of what I learned over the last year. If u want to talk about mechanical obstacles of a hub motor that’s what this is about.
I’m a hobbyist with a passion for this stuff and not a business man. But what I made, even the first all aluminum version, would still outlast the ghost because the design allowed the motor interfaces to be held with retaining fluid effectively making it an interference fitting and that lasts till it gets cooked out. I’m done repeating the same info. If anyone doubts what I’m saying ask a machine shop. I’ve sold over 140 motors and it’s been a long time they’ve been out there. I told every detail of their material and construction. no secrets here. they were all prototypes to be learned from. Mechanically they’re ALL STILL WORKING but people who’ve ridden a lot, including myself, tell the same story of things loosening. I’m telling how to avoid this problem with hub motors.
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Nothing lasts forever and all you can do better! To talk about can not be wrong even if some points are not true.
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Can u show a video or photos to back up this claim
What valid points?
This is ridiculous…
From what i have read above, he is saying that his design is bad, his tolerances are bad and his motors didn’t last because it was a bad design.
He follows from that with a conclusion that due to his bad results everyone must have bad results because “physics” ?
The so called “physics” he refers to is all based around the argument of Slide fit VS Interference fit?
I’m sorry but that’s not “physics” it’s machine engineering and it’s not so simple that you can simply treat it as “black and white” there are many levels of fitment and it involves very precise tolerance control.
http://www.skf.com/binary/109-124478/Fig-17_tcm_12-124478.png
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Awesome. We’re on the same page. For me I simplify and say it comes down to only material and fit.