Thank you very much Frank for the clarification - now the idea of trademarking VESC, Vedder and BLDC tool makes more sense and I am sure will be great for the project! I really like that there are examples at the bottom of (http://www.vesc-project.com/trademark_policies_page) - it is very useful. However, I still have some questions (sorry)!
I still donāt understand though, why esk8.de is not allowed to sell VESCs - they use the same hardware and firmware and state what VESC version they are selling. They also seem to be a prominent, reliable esk8 seller - what does a seller of VESCs need to do to make it reliable enough to classify describing their product as x version of the VESC ā¦[quote=ātrampa, post:20, topic:23017ā]
Fair use
[/quote]
ā¦ of the trademark VESCĀ®.
Also, confusingly āa trademark should never be used as a verb or nounā - goes against [quote=ātrampa, post:20, topic:23017ā]
Fair use of the TM
[/quote]
Finally, given this sentence ("A trademark notice should be used on the most prominent and/or first appearance of each mark of Mr. Vedder, and a trademark notice should not be changed. ") if at each use of VESC a TM mark is written (and no other copyrighted phrases/words are written on the circuit board) can other RELIABLE (approved by Vedder/ @trampa) sellers sell VESCs. Would renaming VESC 4.12 to VESCĀ® 4.12 make it fine for esk8.de - trying to find an example that many sellers can implement e.g. VESCĀ®-X etc. Obviously, in the description, there would have to be some text to make clear that though even if the design used was Vedderās, all inconsistencies in production are the fault of the seller.
Hi, so far Benjamin didnāt enforce the TM, which will change soon. You canāt use VESC on a product, nor to endorse or promote your products (hardware/software). You canāt use it for ads, SEO etc.
Benjamin will publish a notification soon. In your very own interest: Stop using the Brand and and start to build up your own Brand. Promoting or selling products towards/in Europe is not legal, using the Vedder Marks!
Itās for the good of the Project and the customers. There is a reason why most OS-Projects have TMs and enforce them. Itās the only way to assure fair play and keep people or companies with bad attitudes and intentions away.
Not so sure about not letting certified sellers (by you and Vedder) sell VESCs, but I do agree that having official software will be good in the long run. I assume Enertion is fine for the moment because it is in Australia. Will that change (seems rather odd that if a company is based elsewhere it can just bypass a trademark)? Will you also be applying for trademark in the UK (Brexit)?
Is there not a worry that some companies do not care about trademarks on electronics - there are fakes for most hardware (e.g. arduinos) and as soon as that company is āstoppedā it is reopened under a different name.
I agree with @onloop - how does that work!? Vedder doesnāt sell VESCs himself ā¦ right ā¦ so if only he has the right to market/ make them - that makes the project a R&D project that canāt make it to market because of legislature?!
Wondering since the TM is registered under Vedderās name, if he is licensing it to Trampa. I donāt mind Vedder making some money based on his efforts and know-how, if thatās the case. Prefer that he owns the TM rather than a Trademark Troll owning it. Licensing can be simpler way to make some $$ compared to manufacturing.
@trampa Trademark enforcement, in this instance is absolutely NOT for the good if the customer, itās to protect profit.
From my point of view you are protecting profits for a products that we as a community at least partially developed. Frankly, without @onloop, @torqueboards, @oriol360, @okp and their commercial successes with the VESC then Mr. Vedder would have created a product with no outlet and no value. It seems that now you are stepping in and taking advantage of that product growth and potential growth by way of lawyers not innovation.
Iāve seen this hundreds of times. It systematic of what wrong with the āprofitablityā mindset in this era. Anything you can do legally must be ok. Nevermind that the customer is given less choice and higher prices, that people that are willing to risk time and capital to grow a product now are not willing, nevermind that Iāve spent 1200 bucks on VESCs alone in the last 6 months but I can call em VESCās anymore.
I am a technician not a lowyer, but if I understand your comment and the trademark policy on the homepage correctly @esk8 isnt that wrong with his VESK8:
on the policy page the secound example is
Correct: āyour product nameā based upon āMr.Vedder markā
example: XYZ Controller based upon the VESCĀ® Open Source Project
It seems to me that if you are giving credit where legal obligation is due but nearly completely changing the name then as obligated then you should be fine. If any profiteers want to litigate and submit a proper cease and desist then the onerous falls on them. Without such proper documentation its just barking. I think the final word has to come from BV himself anyways. As of yet it is just one company pounding their chest and announcing that they won. What has BV said on the matter?
The Policy states: You canāt use VESC on a product legally, nor use it endorse or advertize products in the scope of the TM.
You canāt use Vesk instead of Vesc or Wezk or Fesk. Phonetic similarity is not allows by TM legislation.
When you sell or endorse, advertise towards Europe or sit in Europe, donāt use VESC or any other project related TM.
And yes, TM trolls are out there and they try to hijack Projects and sue projects. Owning the TM is essential for a project. Anyone believing you could run a OS project without the ownership of the TM is dead wrong. Trouble will come up sooner than later. This world is full of gready folks trying to ride on everyoneās back and having zero ethos.
If you donāt protect a project against that, its almost certain that some folk will try to take over the Brand. You can fight that if you have plenty of cash and time but it will take years and years and tenth of thousands of dollars and nerves. So basically a project being hijacked has no other chance than a full restart. Since the code is OS, hijackers can take over the project with ease.
I canāt believe that some people think its bad that Benjamin and the Project is now protected against attacks. You will find plenty of stories where OS projects have been hijacked. If a project gets successful, its almost certain that someone will grab the TM! Iām already sick of domain-grabbing. TM grabbing is so much more worse!
So anyone saying its a bad thing that VESC is a TM, owned by BV, is basically wanting the Project to go through all that mess and wants some prick to own the TM instead of BV. GREAT idea! Yes, its for the good of the Project, believe me!!!
I agree that BV having the trademark is the best possible person to have the trade mark. The issue is why can you sell VESCās on your website and everyone else has to take it down + why canāt VESCs continue to be marketed as VESCS (and BV justs protects other pricks from stealing the TM and using it to a competitive advantage that destroys the VESC).
So, all this time the open and cooperative use and free promotion of vesc was ok but now that the vesc has matured into its most stable state and incidentally one company seems to have brokered an exclusive deal with (causing the posted price to more than double) there are āthreatsā everywhere? Seems legit, nothing to see hereā¦
Did trampa make the Vesc? I thought the name was Vedderās esc. Not Trampaās esc. Since the name is TM. I think trampa should change it on thier website and when they mention it as well. Would seem fair under the terms?
Because we make - in cooperation with BV - the original Hardware. Benjamin can control the quality and has gains.
After Beta testing, the Software will be published and a reference hardware design.
Anyone can start to design and make Hardware and Software! You can set your own price!
Unfortunately a TM canāt be allowed to be used randomly, because its against the nature of a TM (serving the purpose that customers can identify the original source).
Letting everyone use the TM and then randomly pick on someone is not fair and legally not possible.
If you do something, stand in with your own good name! Build up a Brand with a good reputation and offset your products from your competitions. Its in your very own interest to do that anyway.
Have you ever bought a Windows Computer other than from Microsoft? Probably not. You probably bought a Lenovo, Acer, whatever, running Windows.
In future you buy a Xyz ESC capable of running VESC-Tool since the VESC-Project is 95% software related.
Its Sundays folks, I have two kids jumping around and wanting my attention.
Things are the way they are for a good reason. Benjamin and I spent a lot of time on making decisions! Itās the only way to handle things if you look closer at the matter. We canāt change legislation!
Unless they can prove otherwise it appears that Trampa has brokered an exclusive deal with Vedder. They arenāt openly saying this, they are acting the part of ādefender and championā of Vedderās intellectual property to deflect from the obvious optics of the situation. The optics arenāt good, not good at all. I think we would all like to see a statement from Benjamin himself. I think that the community that supported and embraced him and his work deserves at least that.
Benjamin has a published a statement!
A bit of patience please. Give him the time to finish things before starting yelling around.
Vesc-Tool is tons of work and the foundation for any future hardware design.
We need Beta to be able to cope with the feedback.
have some questions (sorry)!
