Should ESK8 Vendors Make a PROFIT? or NOTHING?

It’s not what we (as consumers) want the vendors to make in terms of profit. It’s what the consumers are willing to pay for a given product/service, and the vendors come up with products that fulfill that demand at a given price. You can sell a VESC for $50 (at a loss), or for $200 (at profit), it’s your business. Your decisions. Some people here are essentially one level above hobbyists, producing small quantities at scale, but not expecting to profit. Just for the fun/community aspect of building something. Others are trying to build real businesses. Completely different objectives. There’s no “right” or “wrong”…just different objectives.

Ultimately the market will decide what prices can be supported. No one is getting “ripped off”. No one forced @chaka to offer a certain price or a certain level of service. It’s what he wants to do, and what he is doing.

Leo

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Was not directed at you - just in general. Nobody needs a boat, plane or sports car to go the speed limit with. But people still buy them (even e-boarders) not thinking about CO2 footprint or sustainable energy consumption.

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oh my bad misread that. and agreed. I think the market will find a price as it always does.

I’m glad we can have this discussion. However, I don’t like the framing very much. It’s not that inovators shouldn’t be able to turn a profit. They should be able to turn a profit, I don’t think there are many people thinking they should never ever make any profit for their work in this all. But you shouldn’t be selling an unfinished product at the same markup as a finished, tested and proven product. I think you need to prove the quality of your product before you charge massive markups.

Idk what your markup is, but without saying how much I paid for the same steez controller elsewhere, the 150% markup is wrong, it was more like 200% markup. If you paid more than half the price you sold them at originally, then you got ripped off from your manufacturer. And if you didn’t, then you made a killer profit.

Chakas markup btw seems to not be very much, as when they were at $130 USD before he raised them, he stated that was basically at cost for him. So even at the $165 USD price, it doesn’t leave much room for if people break them. But he’s very confident in the quality of his product and his customers are too. So he can sell them will a slight markup and still offer a complete warrenty.

My point was I’m sure at the $130 ish price, your still making a decent profit. I would guess your paying around $100 a piece for the vescs, maybe less due to blowout sale you had where the vescs could get down to $80 a piece. Chakas cost more to make, partly because he over specs his components. That seems to have translated into a more durable vesc that seems to be able to take more abuse. Certainly, I did nothing different with the vescs from enertion vs chakas vescs. They were put into the same conditions (which you seemed to think of as abusive, and can see more now that they are), one set failed and the others still working great with no issues. And I don’t need to say whose is still working. I believe @longhairedboy had a similar situation to me, where a bunch of enertion vescs failed on him, and in the same environment, chakas vescs worked great. Even if the design is the same, manufacturing and specking of components seem to have a big effect on the longevity of the vesc.

My whole point is, that going to a new manufacturer for the vesc which is unproven, I don’t think it’s ethical to charge a markup until it can be proven to be of a high quality. It’s true that only chaka knows how many of his have failed, and the same with yours and you. But I believe that there’s different phases of development that should affect what mark up, if any, you charge. This idea that you start at cost to get valuable feed back, and build a name which is recognized as good quality, is what chaka did and now hummie is trying to do. Once you prove your product, I think its a good thing for you to charge some markup. There are benefits to both the owner and the customers by charging a markup, when a product will do what its expected to do. But when it doesn’t, it leaves customers bitter about the money they just lost, and then, tell your self this before going to bed tonight, “I just made a profit on someone elses loss”. That’s what happens when you sell an untested product with a markup. And that’s what I think annoys a frustrated customer into making a show on the forum about it.

I think the options for the poll should be:

a) All items should be sold at cost with no markup b) All items should be sold with markup, regardless of testing state c) Items should be first sold at marginally small to no markup until proven, at which point a markup should be charged

I think C would win in a landslide if you did the polling this way… But you setup this poll to imply that chaka or hummie can’t ever get rewarded for their work. I think hummie will make a profit, partly because hes the most honest salesman ever. There’s no stunts like this poll to prove a point. He’s telling people my motors have problems, they will break, ect… when they might not, because he doesn’t want people to dish out $500 to have them be upset that they didn’t do what they expected. He will get rewarded, it will take longer, but it’s the most honest approach to the situation. And your poll misleads people into thinking there’s never any reward for those who don’t charge markups from the beginning.

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I feel it should be something like this. If you are charging $100 for an item is should be costing about 65% to buy and it should have some warranty and testing done. After you pay the employees you should be left with 10-15%. Taxes and shipping should be added on at checkout. That has to be how it is done on a website because all the different country tax rates…

My thoughts exactly.

When I have a hub motor build I’ll be going for Hummie’s for sure, because, 1. I can trust the product 2. His prices are very reasonable. Also, it is easier for people to talk good about a vendor, a.k.a word of mouth, when they feel they are not being ripped off by them and that will drive more people to buy their products.

That’s hummie business strategy right there in one sentence. Everyone knows how much they should be going for, and everyone knows that if you buy them, your taking a risk. Of all the possible issues he thinks could happen, I only have had one (heat), which is only a problem because I’m a heavy guy who lives in the middle of one of the hilliest cities ever. But it’s good to be open to your customer about everything, because then they can make an informed decision and they won’t feel ripped off if they don’t work out, because the info was there, and markup wasn’t.

If someone was selling a finish product, take for example the VESC, it will need to go through audit by international Laws and regulation, concerning electronic and manufacturing process, that take time and money (a F…K ton of money), and at the end,a approve VESC will cost around 250 to 300 dollar. (that why china product are selling for so cheap).

Edit: And Yes vendor should make profit, to ramp up the quality of their product by putting more money in them. (it is a circle)

Ethics aside… the beauty of the free market is that bad products and bad businesses have a way of getting sorted out naturally. If you are selling garbage, no matter what you charge for it, people will find out fast. The business will have trouble selling their swag, and will need to reduce price, revise, or both. What about the lost sales due to bad reviews/reputation? Tough shit. Fix it or die. Welcome to the free market.

If you are a hobbyist and you are donating time and resources for the betterment of the community that is a personal (admirable?) choice. Typically those folks already have a day job that pays the bills. But if someone is doing it primarily to make a living, then why shouldn’t they attempt to profit from their labor?

If the gear any producer is peddling is inferior and/or more expensive for the same quality, like I said… the market will sort that out for them right quick. We are consumers with choices. I vote with my cash. If you are producing quality gear and consumers feel your quality gear is worth the price you are asking… more power to you.

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You should be rewarded when you make a good product,you shouldn’t be rewarded if you make any product. It’s called free market economics.

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You don’t think the free market economy does this naturally already?

The market rewards you when you make a good product at a good price. People line up to buy your shit.

Likewise, the market punishes you when you make a bad product. People find out, reputation takes a hit, and sales plummet.

It’s a simple, cold, cruel world… but it works.

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in this age you can sell an illusion of a product on kickstarter and make quazillions and then spend the next two years working out what the hell it is you said you were selling and then try to make it reality.

I never blame a seller. I dont think the bag guy louis vetton is doing anything unethical I think the women who buy his bags are idiots. Not to compare you to that bag onloop. I think your motor hype is over the top but youre here and doing things and you started this forum and you’re back in it and communicating. It’s radical the changes in the last 2 years in the eskateworld and youre helping, helping to put cleaner, faster, lighter, cooler, funner, stuff out there.

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The louis vuitton example isn’t particularly relevant. When people are motivated to buy luxury goods, status becomes a buyer want- it is hard to buy status without making unaffordable to most (which is what creates separation and thus status). A quartz watch, which costs $20, will always out perform a $5000 Swiss mechanical watch because the technology is better for accurate, all conditions time keeping. But people don’t buy Omegas because they tell the time better, they buy them for status.

Anyway, back to this topic. I feel the primary issue in the diy e-skate cost space is not the sellers. Under normal capitalist conditions, market pressures (supply, demand) will drive efficiencies and price reductions, the best sellers would survive and the buyers would be happy with the costs. But this assumes the industry isn’t competing solely on price. If it was to compete solely on price, this would be great initially for the consumer, but the producers would under-sell each other until only the company with the deepest pockets or most efficient process (often aligned to size/ scale) remained. Then it would become a monopoly, prices would likely increase again and innovation would be less.

I think the issue in the e-skate business is the mindset of all of us that are buyers are tethered to - we view it as a hobby, and our minds are programmed to believe skateboarding is a fun and relatively cheap hobby.

The problem with this is that in the last 3-4 years, the tiny industry that has grown, has discovered that e-skateboards are more like a transport problem, and less like a kids hobby problem. Sure, the enabling tech for e-skates came mostly from remote control hobbies, but we stand on our hobbies, drive it for 100s of miles on crappy roads at high speed, and trust it with our health and safety. None of this is a problem for rc toys, drones, or really, even traditional skateboards (because they don’t get pushed to that extreme).

So we tend to budget for a RC + skateboard, but that doesn’t truly capture the costs of increased safety, reliability, performance and range issues.

When our suppliers cater to our cost expectations, we get hobby grade stuff. Sure, it works, but how long, how reliably, and at what risk to the human riding it are topics which flood this forum daily.

If we framed this industry not as a hobby, but say as a legit transport device, we might perceive the costs differently. I’m using my board to commute daily. I’ve spent around 2300$ all up on stuff relating to it. I could own 20 boards before it cost the same as my car. Then, if I compare ongoing maintenance and fuel costs, I could replace my board yearly and still come out better off.

So I think the marketplace here is slightly distorted based on the immaturity of the entire industry. 2k for a skateboard is viewed as crazy. But only because a ton of people are sitting closer to RC hobbies or traditional skate board hobbies (because they are the connecting ideas), than they are to the realities what you really need or want in an e-skateboard.

The fact that new innovative products are still expensive, and still tend to fail (because we are trying to keep the development and manufacturing cost down so much), creates this perception in the buyers mind of a lack of value.

Anyways, perhaps the diy-estate veterans are the ones holding back this hobby/ industry. What we really need is sellers who create high quality, high reliability, high functionality, modular e-skate systems that can ship around the globe, giving the widest range of DIY-ers the chance to mix and match safely to design their own creations. The ‘price’ will be whatever the market allows it to be once those goals are being met. Sadly, that price will probably exclude many diy-ers who can’t afford the cost hike this needs, until economies of scale, large increase in mainstream buyers, and return on development costs kick in.

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@magnetvox We’ll said…

I think mostly not the folks on the forums of course but most folks only want it to go literally the last 1 mile. Sure, you don’t need a $1k-1.5k board to go 1 mile. For the obvious commuters, a bus fair one way here in San Francisco is $2.45, you do that twice a day that’s $4.90 per day x 20 days in a month x 12 months = $1,176 /year

Now factor in your 15 minutes waiting one trip and another 15 minutes another trip.

Using my eboard for commuting when I was working. I literally saved 5-6 hours per week riding and it’s just much more enjoyable. Waiting for the bus or missing the bus is a waste of time :). The cost for a $1-1.5k eboard was worth it. That’s the entire reason why I’m in this business. I was literally annoyed by the commute taking so long + climbing these pretty large hills in SF just to get to work. lol

RC, Surfing, Paintballing, Quadcopters, Cars – You name it… Any hobby will always cost more money then it’s worth. But a hobby is more so a passion.

There are and always will be cheap components. But you get what you pay for. Some are ok with it and some are not.

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just a few random thoughts as i come in at the tail end of the conversation.

i pay $80 each plus shipping when i buy steeze remotes from maytech four at a time via ali express.

also i’m totally upside down on the 7 builds i’ve been commissioned with so far because i mistakenly thought i needed to compete with other people’s prices. I don’t. I know that now. I was still looking at all of this as a DIYer and not as a builder of custom hot rods, and i was sympathizing with a lot of the above points.

Also, warranty and customer service is critical right now because we’re all still basically building and selling prototypes that WILL fail, not a question of if, but when. Time between failure is gradually lengthening, but we haven’t arrived at anything approaching something like a car or power chair in reliability. So when something breaks as a shop owner i have to stand behind my shit and take care of my people. If we don’t all do that noone will build confidence in either our boards or this new industry as a whole, fewer people will buy in, development will take longer or stagnate, etc etc.

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@longhairedboy has it right, provide a quality product with the service to back it up, and charge whatever you need to for that to make sense as a business. If the price isn’t insane and the product/service holds up your business will explode. Anyone can make cheap crap, service and quality is the hard part.

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but what could be done to make things safer? the big name brands are selling the same exact stuff the diy people are using in terms of materials and mechanical design. the electrical stuff I’m sure theirs is safer than diy but other than maybe soldering all your connections and safely securing your stuff down the right way, I dont see safer or more robust stuff coming from the companies that charge the most. evolve is easy to point to. Have you seen the prices of stuff on their site?! i was looking at their old carbon board that they’re now selling. 500 us and that doesnt even include the 200 dollar battery door. a set of wheels for 80. Evolve is the biggest thing in esk8. they invest the most i imagine. I dont see anything safer or more reliable, I see gadgets and sexiness. I’m not saying it’s good or bad just saying that’s the way the world seems to work as I see it.

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In not disagreeing with you @Hummie.

I’m not saying anyone is doing it better or worse in terms of safety and reliability, although intuitively my sense it’s better in some company’s than others, and that had more to do with R&D expenditure or just product release cycles than anything. I was taking a high level view. I probably left out the cost of customer service as a key point too.

People are quick to point out the importance of service. It’s related to the topic, because good service costs, and the community is increasingly expecting it. I’m always amazed when someone cracks open a boosted board and loudly proclaims ‘that’s all you get for 2k?? My $600 build is better than that". And then 3 posts later they are either highlighting how boosted’ customer service is the industry benchmark, or they crucify a small scale innovator (like yourself) because they didn’t get an immediate turn around on some problem. Great customer service is an offering differentiator which costs more, the more it improves. As soon as we argue customer service is critical, the lowest price argument is dead. Too different strategies.

The sweet spot is in probably the middle, but having said that, as this industry grows there is room for all strategies. Some sellers will compete on price, some on superior service, some on global reach, some on innovative tech (you are this last one probably). But my original point was that there seems to be an unrealistic perception of what good quality plus good service plus innovation (R&D) should cost. My theory is its because we are coming from a toy-like perspective.

Anyway- back to the real thread question- do manufacturers deserve to make a profit?

Profit is just what’s left after you subtract expenses from revenue. Profit can be reinvested to grow employees, better tooling, reinvested to conduct R&D, reinvested to improve supply chains, reinvested to improve delivery methods, used to pay off debt, or given back to shareholders (investors) as dividends. I don’t think any of the sellers in this forum have shareholders (correct me if I’m wrong). If any of the sole traders here intended to make a quick profit and leave then I doubt they would even still be here.Therefore, why the hell wouldn’t anyone here want them to make a profit… Given we mostly seem to complain about the standard of each of those things it allows them to reinvest in and therefore improve!

I think focusing on monetary gain in a hobbyspace in which all of the greatest developments have been through sharing information and through open source software is kind of a bad thing.

@magnetvox you are like a breath of, sensisbile, logical, reasonable, fresh air.

If anyone is interested in the basic enertion strategy.

  1. We sell our products for more than they cost us to manufacture & supply to the end user.
  2. We reinvest all the profit back into the business, increasing stock holdings, developing new products, hosting public forums, improving our systems & most recently employing people etc.
  3. I have not taken a wage since the start. I work for free.
  4. I would like to earn an income sometime within the first 5 years. To buy food & stuff.
  5. The business needs to break even or ideally be profitable at the end of each year, otherwise, if it runs at a loss I will close it down & get a normal job - no warranty for anyone, no forum, no innovations.

no profit = no enertion

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