Just out of curiosity can Benjamin write an invoice? A company can’t just give money for nothing to someone right?
True but on the other hand we might got something like dual Focbox earlier if VESC was not around.
FOCBOX is a VESC 4.xx based ESC 
Some hardware upgraded, still uses VESC code/software, Jason changed the name from VESC-X to FOCBOX…
[…] Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 08:38 Location: Sweden Contact: Contact benjamin About the VESC trademark Postby benjamin » 17 May 2017, 16:17
It seems like several people are upset because I have obtained a trademark on the name VESC, so I would like to clarify a few things about that. For now this long post can be used as a reference if people are asking about the trademark.
At first I had no idea about trademarks and did not care about them either. Frank (from trampaboards) told me that it is very important to have a trademark and that I should get one if I want to take VESC project further. An international trademark is very expensive and I had no way to pay for it, so trampa offered me to pay for it hoping that the VESC6 production that we planned to do together would cover at least that cost.
To make the deal with trampa clear:
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The trademark is registered in my name alone, and I let them use it when selling the VESC6. I have made the design, checked the production carefully and share the profits of the sales with them from the VESC6, so the VESC6 hardware sold by trampa has a strong connection to my name. I want to point out that I have no obligation to stay with trampa for the “official” VESC hardware in the future as the trademark is in my name, so this is really a choice that I make myself.
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Trampa has the responsibility for the sold hardware. I would not sell hardware myself as I am afraid to get into trouble when doing that, so for me and the community this is a much better option than not having any hardware available at all where I have been involved in the production and quality checks to this extent.
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Considering the costs for the trademark, legal stuff, testing, traveling, compliance testing etc, the VESC6 hardware is not likely to generate any profit any time soon. No one is even getting paid for the hours spent on this. For trampa the gain is that they will have a very good motor controller that they can sell with their boards for the best user experience, and for me this is a step in the direction of making a solid foundation for the VESC project.
Going back to the trademark, there are many good reasons to have a trademark and all major open source projects have one. For one thing, there are many countries where a trademark is first come, first serve and if a project gains critical mass there are people who will get a trademark and try to take advantage of that. Here is an example where that happens:
Further, only one person or company can have a trademark, and for the VESC I think it is most appropriate that I have the trademark since I have literally spent years on the software development for the VESC. It is also kind of funny that many people see the VESC as the hardware that is around that many people have tweaked and made in the community; that is not where the value of the VESC project is. The great majority of the work is in the software. I can make a new PCB in a few days, and the software has taken me years to write. The hardware is only a tiny fraction of the work.
The trademark policies, which can be found here
http://www.vesc-project.com/trademark_policies_page
are very much based on the linux trademark policies, which is shared under a CC license. Other open source projects that have trademarks are raspberry pi, arduino, gnome, mozilla, joomla, drupal and many more. Joomla for example has some trademark FAQs that probably apply to most open source projects and their trademarks:
In general the trademark does not exclude the community from getting involved with the VESC Project and making/selling hardware, it is intended for making it possible to identify things that are called VESC with myself. Right now there are many websites out there that look like the official VESC website, and people who find them often think that they are from me. For example, many people have asked my about “my” site vesc.co.uk and products they bought there when in fact I have nothing to do with that site or their products. If you open that site and several others it is not easy to tell that they are not published by me, and that is a problem in general which a trademark is supposed to protect against.
Fair use of the trademark essentially is that you can base your design/product on all the open source software and hardware that I have published (following the license terms as usual), but you have to sell it under your own name and give attribution to the project. For example “XSC, based on the open source VESC® project”. There are some examples of what is fair use and what is not if you read my trademark policies.
I think there is nothing wrong with me not wanting to be associated with things that I don’t even know about or have anything to do with, and that is what a trademark is for.
I also want to mention the partner program briefly that I’m working on. People have gotten crazy ideas that I want to use the trademark to claim money from them for all the VESC4 that they have sold until now, and that is certainly not the case. Anyone can use the things I have published just as before and sell it under their own name; and they don’t have to pay me anything. All they have to do, just as before, is complying with the GPL license for the software, meaning among other thing that if they change the software they have to publish the changes as well. The idea with the partner program is to have manufacturers for example pay a small amount per unit they sell in exchange for having them listed as compatible hardware under the VESC-project website and for me maintaining support for their hardware in VESC Tool and the VESC firmware for future updates of the software. But again, no one is forced to do that and they can just do their own thing with the VESC open source stuff using their own name and not pay me anything. I hope however that enough manufacturers will see some value in supporting the project so that maybe eventually the income will be enough to pay for a salary or two. Then development of e.g. open source apps can be accelerated by paying developers. This is not my only plan for trying to get a bit of funds from the project while keeping it open source and involving more manufacturers, but I will not write more details about that here. I’m working on the VESC Project website and trying to set everything up and explain things there. […]
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I checked out your web site and im def. a customer.
It really sucks when established companies want to keep the smaller ones from growing, it shows that big companies forget how they started and came from. im pretty sure they were very small at one time when starting.
If you read between all the repetitive gibberish coming from @trampa this is really what it’s about. Escape and this focbox seller clearly didn’t want to pass off like vesc6 with just mentioning the name but trampa is going all in to stop them so he can sell more vesc6. This is ONLY about money nothing else…
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@Acidfie Thanks for the relevant info!
Guys how about starting to use as a listing model reference :
“[YOUR_ESC_NAME] based on VESC™ project from Benjamin Vedder, compatible with VESC™ project open source software”
Simple.
@Trampa How about this. Can we cut the bullshit and get back to improving the controllers.
I’m pretty confident you play a big part in “Zero ESC manufacturers have donated to Ben” due to your aggressive marketing strategy. And I’d like to trust your numbers but I can’t, sorry.
It just won’t happen without backup.
You’re doing so much to offer quality products for mountain boards. You have your unique spot in this category, which no one tries to claim. You don’t need to go at war with VESC type ESCs to expand your market. You don’t.
And people won’t stop once they’re involved either, you’re wasting time sending nonsense to who you deem compétition while you could manage your sales and further development instead!
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I personally don’t think the TM will have any impacts on hardware sales for no one. The TM doesn’t serve the purpose to hinder anyone from making and selling their hardware designs. It is explicitly allowed to describe your device as based or compatible with, so that customers can easily see that the device will be able to run the firmware.
Companies who are serious about what they sell give their products a unique identifier/naming anyway, so that their products can be easily separated from competing products. In the end your offered quality and service + marketing will make the difference in sales, not the use of a certain TM.
It is in your very own interest to build up your own reputation and branding. Everyone using the same name for the different products/qualities will only confuse. We will see more different designs soon, so they should be named differently, associated with the different brands out there.
As said before: It is all about finding a good balance that works for the project, the manufacturers and the customers. And the TM in combination with the TM policies strikes quite a good balance. This is why most OS-Projects go down that exact line. There is a reason for that.
The code is a given horse after all. People need to start to accept that things are as they are and rather be thankful for what they get, rather then complaining about what they didn’t get. The brand is not part of the OS-License. The code is licensed. It is not about making code and technology + branding available for everyone to instantly being able to start cloning an existing product with an existing branding.
It is about sharing code and ideas to enable others to build something (else) upon that.
@Vanarian : I get emails from customers telling me about TM violations. Whenever something pops up, I do inform the companies that there is an issue, since this is a legal duty. If it pops up, you need to inform the violator of a TM about the issue. You can’t close your eyes… In future this will be handled by the legal advisors, as part of a TM monitoring contract. Benjamin and I can’t browse the web all day long and have conversations with to many people.
I agree: Wasting time on such debates is not our interest, nor should it be anyone elses. If that time would be put into innovating things it would be far more better invested.
We didn’t start crying like a baby in the public about a matter that has been debated already down to the derail, nor did we call anyone Asholes, Wankas etc.
Yes, make your product Unik to stand apart. True if you manufacture, not resale. Also I think if your interest in the project wasn’t monetary in nature and you where doing it on your overwhelming need to protect the project it would be easier to swallow.
Once again no one has said it’s not his work or it didn’t take forever and it’s great code. Ok. He has been praised and to protect the project he TM it with your money. Is there biase. Yes. Understandably.
We are not in a market that has leveled off or slowed down. We are in a growing industry and you just happen to be established. Great. No one want to take that. But when you target anyone who happens to have v before a esc and read them the right act and how much trouble we could get in and fake nice way. Bullshit. I’m from Texas. I know what bull shit is. It’s a tactic a shitty one used by established companies like yours to control the smaller guys coming up. We all have our vision of what could be. I can see a large migration away for this project because of the issues arising from it. Companies like evolve and boosted have made changes to the degree they don’t have to fallow your drum. It’s only a matter of time before one is developed for the community by the community and not just one guy who found himself talked into a deal with you. As far as I’m concerned it’s a non issue with me. There are enough guys out here in the community just on the forum who have started to take some this and place it where it belongs in the hands of the end user. Your message is well received frank. I’m just defiant by nature, Benjamin L
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I don’t think this is going to work for me because my version will just be a makers mark with no name like how people associate the swoosh design with Nike.
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FTFY
There you go bro, like that? 
You just need to be clear with you mark.
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