Raptor 2 | Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

Anyone seen this? There seems to be quite a bit of miss information.

Just watched it. Overall, some decent information and good marketing. I don’t really believe that in a dual 15mm set up though that the the belts become the limiting factors for power delivery. Heck a 15mm single can take a lot of abuse. If you have 30mm of belts, I’m pretty sure your motors and battery will be the limiting factor for power at that stage.

Also, I’m not really buying the whole torque get’s lost in the belt drive system thing.

I am personally very excited about the developments in hub motors, but don’t know if they will replace belt driven set ups all together. To me, they each have their place. For example, if you have a route with a lot of hill for you commute you can dial in your gearing for the belt drive set up, at the expense of some top speeds, but probably get a lot better efficiency and better range than a hub motor setup that can tackle the same hills. I’m doing some pretty steep hills on my single drive 6s setup that I’m fairly confident a single drive hub motor could not match.

Well, that’s mainly my point, HDT5 belts even 9mm can take over 450nM before breaking as for slipping on a 16/36 setup with the right tension you are way above 6nM.

Now, if you compare 2 50mm motors with 2 65mm motors… there’s an obvious difference and stating that 3.3nM vs 6nM is just the wrong comparison. Its like apples to oranges.

Has this been tested with current VESC’s and overheating issues?

I bet the high speed performance is stellar but in normal riding isn’t this going to produce less range like most hub systems?

that’s simple physics. all drive train components introduce friction and losses.

however reduction gearing will increase torque significantly. more so than any losses.

having said that these are 2 different motors we are talking about here so the increase in torque via belt gearing may not be as much as what is available from the bigger hub motor.

I do like how whatever enertion is selling at the time instantly becomes “the best” though. GT2B was the best option in controllers until nano-x is the best. belt drive was superior in all aspects until Raptor 2 and now hub motors are best.

Jason is good at marketing.


thanks for the compliment, but it’s not that simple, people are not idiots, tell them lies & you don’t last.

What I am very good at is analyzing data, doing R&D, then depending what comes out on top I structure my business to focus on selling that product based on its merits… I deliver the information in a way that most people can understand it & use the facts to tell the story. People will always buy the better, cheaper, simpler products, especially when the are facts to back it up.

I have built my business around this methodology.

I never said you lie.

I said you were good at marketing.


Not miss information, not actually based on my own information either, it’s from data provided by the belt manufacturers, you can get the same data from here to cross check it: http://file.lasersaur.com/docs-thirdparty/The_World_of_Timing_Belts.pdf

However, I actually screwed up & said smaller belts transfer more torque, but i meant to say bigger belts transfer more.

all the testing so far is with old VESC, the VESC-X is only going to improve our results.

range is one thing that is hard to discuss… there are just too many variables… In fact, if i use some variables to my advantage i am fairly certain i can demonstrate that hub motors are more efficient in some situations.

Nice video @onloop , I like the white background (maybe just check the sound levels on the next one if you have time :slight_smile: )

In my opinion, the only clear advantage that belt drives offer are easy Torque/MaxSpeed customisation by changing the gear ratio.

But (and I might be wrong), wouldn’t a Hub motor, as any motor, have more torque and less max speed if we just increase the number of poles ?

Wow nice video, but next time can you change the color of text to something easier to see. the white back ground and ur text color are kinda blended in.

After all ur claims ab ur hub motor, in my sense, i’m still a bit doubtful ab the torque they produce.

But what do i know? Let’s wait and see. :smile:

@lowGuido is right though… You are great at marketing and everything you do is “the best”. I have no doubt you spend a lot of time doing R&D, and I have no doubt that most of your products are solid. But “the best” is what you claim to have very often, and it’s really hard to believe without an unbiased, objective comparison with lots of data of the alternatives to your technology. You basically said you have the first “good” hub motor in your Q and A video a few days ago, which is a straight out lie. The carvon v2.5 is a great hub motor from what I’ve heard. And hummies new bigger motor should be very powerful, and it has the best mechanical setup IMO, even better than the raptor 2 hub motors. I think they will be on par, if not better than the raptor 2 motors. And they will be available to the public long before the raptor 2.

I love your passion, I love when you push the envelope and force your competitors to step up their game. But to my knowledge, your knowledge in electrical engineering is limited. So when you come out and make this trumped up (pun intended) claims, you make a lot of claims without proofs. I know most of your customer could care less about the proofs, but many other’s who are trying to push the envelope want to see the proofs. I want to see you write out a physics equation with real world numbers, and break it all down using math and science to show us how this new product is “the best” as you have claimed many times in the past with your new products.

But your also not the only one to do this type of marketing. Evolve said until just a few months ago, dual drive electric skateboards were not possible until very recent break throughs in the motor industry. But they now are, and we’re making them. It’s such a lie, that it’s laughable. Most consumers will eat it up and think they are supporting the forefront of technology, when dual motor configs have existed for years… Heck, even 4wd exist years ago. Nothings changed in these motors… But they have to have the best, at all times, even when they are not even close to the best…

now you are using the word best & great :slight_smile:

Anyway, i never actually said my hub motors are the best. What I have said is the Raptor 2 electric skateboard is the most powerful direct drive electric skateboard & so far there is nobody disputing that claim! & the reason they are not is because it is true.

Now… when it comes to data & evidence i have always provided video proof to back up my claims when possible… I have also made a video of hummies hub going up hill even before he did it & i also did jacobs hubs side-by-side in the same video clearly showing the heat & the torque differences. i have published more esk8 videos than anyone: Here are some real world tests we have done with hub prototypes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X8Nm1ZyMaM & this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa4faw0N954

So why are there no other hub vendors making videos of hub motors going up hillz? maybe other vendors are a bit worried? or maybe they are lazy? I have no idea.

We are also building a dyno to test the real “at-the-wheel-performance”

I have a track record of proving my claims.

There is also other people (independent) who have data that show the performance you can get from hub motors. see here:

I probably should’ve been clearer. I get that there is some drivetrain loss for sure, but it’s not like a car where it’s 15% due to all the heavy spinning components like flywheels, clutch, driveshaft, differentials etc. It’s literally one tiny belt…It has got to be pretty negligible.

Practically speaking, I do not believe that hub motors can be as consistently efficient as belt drives can be with the ESCs currently available.

The VESC 6 has the potential to change this based on what I have reviewed and discussed. The hardware changes have necessitated revisions to the ESC’s algorithm so its possible the state of the VESC’s hub motor potential may change. As it stands, no VESC or modification I have seen can consistently drive a true hub motor with good efficiency. Inboard’s struggles will likely be mirrored in the Raptor 2 design - but only time will tell.

For all those computer programmers and electrical engineers out there, there is a lot of things we (as in the world) can’t quantify fully. We are constantly discovering new ways of driving motors. We just need one that works for hub motors as well as it does for belted motors.

I may not have the money to buy one of Enertion’s amazing boards, and I’m certainly no expert on the matter (haven’t even built my first board yet), but I appreciate how thorough @onloop made his hub motor comparison video(s).

It seems like some people think he comes off as cocky/biased, but he always has (video) proof to back up his statements. I respect the hell out of that.

Yes, At the end of the day @Onloop will put up a video comparison. Cant wait to see it against the Raptor V1. The good thing about the Hubs is the look. Hes really gone out there to get the stealth look. Love the black wheels.

Having said that. When Ive been on my Raptor V1 most people dont know its electric as the motors are inboard so you cant really tell as your looking from behind.

Well, you’re stating that 3.3nM is all a belt can provide, that’s straight from your video, im not sure where you’re getting this number tough.

But from that exact pdf, if you look at the “Tooth Jump Resistance” graph, you can clearly see that a 15mm HDT5 belt, even when not properly tensioned will not jump teeth even at 300 lb/in or 33nM, and properly tensioned 400 lb/in or 45nM. So im not sure where you’re getting your numbers, but they’re WAY off, hence why im saying your claims are unfounded. Now, maybe your 50mm motors cant deliver more than 3.3nM. but that has nothing to do with the limits of the belt.

If you can stand on a board pushing 45nM, call the guiness book and get your record in!

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I’m a noob at this, but went down to my local skate shop and since I’m a big guy (6’3" 210lbs) they said I would not be happy with a hub motor, that only a belt drive system could provide the torque and acceleration I would want and need. They gave the Inboard M1 as an example, and said the Raptor 2 would face the same issues, that the Evolve and Boosted would be way better in this respect. Any comments?

you (and they) will have to define “happiness” what are you looking for in a board. I for one weigh as much as you at 6’0". I’m happy with a somewhat POS Landwheel that failed on me multiple times, BUT when it was running and hauled my butt from a car repair shop to a train station 5 miles away I was “happy” with it’s torque and acceleration, I think hills is the only potential problem a normal rider would face. I highly highly doubt Raptor 2 would have the issues Landwheel have. Until Raptor 2 releases, it’s all speculation.

I have a Boosted 2 and it’s limited range is why it hangs on the wall more often than not…The Evolve battery voltage sag would be a concern, otherwise Evolve over Boosted.